Automatic gearboxes

[Chris da Silva]

From a "spy who came in from the cold" ....

The "Mk 2" Cappuccino (those with VINs commencing with EA21R .....) have a choice of having either the tried and tested 5-speed gearbox or a 3-speed automatic option; which is very useful to know!

I'm asking this because I like to find out whether a Honda Beat or an Autozam AZ-1 can be (retro) fitted with a 3-speed auto box as an "acceptable upgrade" seeing that quite a few classic- and collectible cars have this option! For example, the early Jaguar E-type (with the 3.8-litre engine) were originally fitted with drum brakes all round. The acceptable upgrade means that the drum brakes can be replaced with [direct-replacement] discs for a better stopping power and increased safety; and which makes a lot of sense with today's motoring!

Although the AZ-1 or Beats' 5-speed manual box does not constitute a safety factor as such like the Mk 1 E-Type, having a 3-speed auto box like the Mk 2 Cappuccino would make driving these cars a lot more user-friendly for the 21st century!

Can anyone out there shed some light on this, please?

[Ian Linden]

Can't comment on the Beat, but the AZ1' engine is behind the seats, so the gearbox is in a totally different configuration to the EA21R. You might be able to fit an engine and transmission from a front wheel drive car turned around, and with the steering arrangements locked. There was a mini-based kit car which did just that, but I forget the name.

[Chris da Silva]

The engine layout of the Beat is practically identical to the AZ-1 in that it's also rear mounted and transverse. This in turn means that the noise and heat will be behind the driver and the passenger not too unlike the AZ-1. The other Mini-based kit car with that layout you mentioned is the Unipower GT, and that car was introduced back in the mid-60's. The engine on that was a BLMC 998 cc unit (as fitted to the Mini 1000) - but the gearbox is reversed; and to add to the confusion, the gear lever was fitted to the driver's door sill instead of between the seats! Imagine a gearbox turned 180 degrees around and placed in an unconventional position .... that'll take some getting used to, I can imagine! And climbing over the gearshift in a low-slung car is quite a challenge especially if you're not quite up to it!!

Ironically, I was also interested in buying one, would you believe; but it went out of production only after a short run! Many of them ended up in Japan where there is a big following, so I am told. But I also understand that the tooling, presses etc. of the Unipower are locked away somewhere in the UK! So if someone intended to start up production again, they can use the Cappuccino K6A engine which is still in production. (The Cappuccino engine is also used in the current Caterham 160, aka a Lotus Super 7 with a new name. I checked out a road test on that car - and does it move or what!!)

That's how good the K6A unit is.

[Ian Linden]

I think the K6 was used in some JDM versions of the WagonR - not sure if there was an automatic option, but that could be another candidate for a donor.

[Chris da Silva]

I haven't seen the engine and gearbox layout of the Beat or AZ-1 yet; but if it's just a matter of having a separate gearbox bolted directly on to the engine block, then a 1 to 1 straight swap should be quite easy. The next question is whether there is a third party manufacturer out there who can provide that replacement.

Did Suzuki manufacture the automatic box as fitted to the EA21R; or was that from another supplier like ZF or Borg-Warner?

[Ian Linden]

I believe the AZ1 transmission is transverse, as was the WagonR. Suzuki usually get their auto gearboxes from Aisin, and the internals are a Borg-Warner design. It may be that the WagonR gearbox would bolt up to the AZ1 engine.

If you haven't experienced the AZ1, you may be disappointed. Apparently it is very noisy, poorly ventilated and the back of the cabin gets very hot from the engine.

[Chris da Silva]

The AZ-1's engine and gearbox setup is like the Honda Beat's.

I hope there may be a third-party supplier for a 3-speed auto box to replace the 5-speed manual one which came with the AZ-1 (and for the Honda Beat too, for that matter). Looking back into the history, The MGB V8 only came with a manual box initially when it was first launched; but it took a third-party engineering firm (Costello Engineering) to replace the manual box with an automatic one. BL got so inspired by this that they started to supply the MGB with their own automatic transmission running alongside the manual transmission during assembly at the factory. And this former version became very sought-after as the MGB V8 to own because they're more comfortable to drive. My argument here is that maybe someone [like Costello] could do the same with the AZ-1 and Beat.

(Out of interest, the automatic transmission supplied to the EA21R production was factory fitted with a 3-speed auto box - and what a pleasure it is to drive!)

The footwell of these small cars are very narrow (and crowded!) and can be very awkward to use as we all know as the pedals are very close to each other. And I'm not surprised that occasionally, two rather than one pedal is pressed because of the tight space. (FYI, the AZ-1's footwell is even narrower than the Beat's!)

Both the AZ-1 and Beat have got 4 "foot pads" - accelerator, brake, clutch + a footrest! And all these are crammed into a very restricted space. (Yep, might be a bit comfy if the driver has got smaller feet; but not everyone has got the said smaller feet ...)

But if these cars were fitted with an automatic transmission, they will then have just 3 "foot pads": accelerator, brake and a footrest. Even for someone who is wearing a larger pair of shoes, it would be a lot comfier to just use the two functioning pedals [with the right foot] while resting his/her left foot on the footrest.

Food for thought here ...

[Ian Linden]

Chris,

Nothing is impossible, but you would have to finance all the R&D, as the market for AZ1 and Cara conversions would be minimal. My guess is you would be looking at something like £50,000.

I understand that the logic behind the Cappuccino ATX version was to appeal to Japanese women, so the cramped footwell would not have been that much of an issue.

I agree that two pedal driving for the AZ1, or the Cappo, for that matter, would be nice, so how about an electric conversion? If it was not too pricey, I would do it to mine.

[Chris da Silva]

Hello Ian

Nah - I'm the old school internal combustion supporter. To me, electric vehicles are just trending for the moment; but there is still a firm following of classic car enthusiasts who would stay with the established petrol-powered cars. I'm one of them.

But thanks for your view and comments.

[Ian Linden]

...To me, electric vehicles are just trending for the moment;,,,,

I'll bet that was what the owners of Stanley Steamers said about ICE cars

[Chris da Silva]

Yeh - they might have said that! But ICE cars dominated the Stanley Steamers in the end.

[Ian Linden]

Yup, and EVs will do the same

[Chris da Silva]

We'll bide our time and see what happens!

The biggest fault about battery powered cars is the distance it can travel on a single charge - so how many charging stations are there in comparison to petrol stations? And where else are they allocated apart from service stations on the motorway? If a battery powered vehicle is only used for regular short distances or town running, then it might be feasible to own one. So is the population confined to this?

Charging takes a few hours for each vehicle (depending on the type of vehicle); but by comparison, internal combustion cars only take a few minutes to have its tank topped up and the driver can continue on his journey quickly and without any hassle.

It's just common sense and so obvious; yet there are so many people who are just brainwashed with battery powered transport.

So are battery powered vehicles the next generation of "Stanley Steamers"? Hmmm!

Forgot to add: Each time the batteries are charged up, their lifespans are slightly reduced gradually - so they have a finite existence. That's something which doesn't happen with ICE's!

[Ian Linden]

Interesting discussion. But ICEs do fade away or require rebuild with use as well, and the newer technology batteries are projected to last over 100,000 miles. My KIA SoulEV battery is still over 100% SOH after 6.5 years and 46,000 miles. The early batteries (eg early Nissan Leaf), uncooled and less developed technology, have perpetuated a bit of a myth.

However, BEVs are only one manifestation of EVs. I think that FCEVs have a big future role in longer distance transport. I envisage a sort of hybrid FCEV which has a small battery (like a present-day ICE hybrid, but with the fuel cell taking the place of the ICE). The battery could power the round-town stages, and the FC the long distance part, plus topping up the battery, which would also receive energy from regenerative braking. This is attractive because FCs take time to run up to full power, and need a run down period as well (a bit like the Stanley Steamer!).

Refuelling would be as quick as ICE vehicles. Let's see if it catches on

[Chris da Silva]

Only time will tell!

In the meantime, I'll stick with the ICE's ...

Out of interest, there is a series of reports on YouTube about someone going around the UK in a battery powered Porsche. I can't think of his name or the name of the program off hand; but if you have some spare time, see if you can look it up. This fella is brutally honest about battery powered vehicles and owning one - something I had suspected all along since it was first introduced.

Cheers.