Parts - Assistance needed....

Technical queries, discussion and all-round enthusiasm for the Cappuccino.

Moderator: Steering Group

Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Mon Nov 11, 2013 01:54

Hi.

Can anyone help me with a query, please?

When replacing the thermostat on an EA21R, the parts book (Fig 20) shows it as Item #10. But what it does not show is the thermostat housing gasket! So where in the [parts] book is this gasket shown? :confused:

Chris
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Ian Linden » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:58

Tricky!

The EA11R shows its thermo housing gasket both on Fig 1 (Engine Gaskets) and on the Water Hose figure.

The EA21R shows no thermo housing gasket on either figure. And I tried matching the Kanji from the EA11R Japanese book to the EA21R, and couldn't find it that way either.

Maybe there isn't one, and you use "gasket in a tube"? e.g. Red Hermetite (if that's still around).
SCORE Treasurer & Membership Secretary
User avatar
Ian Linden
Steering Group
Steering Group
 
Posts: 4165
Images: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 21:58
Location: St Lawrence, Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Mon Nov 11, 2013 13:27

Hi Ian

That's what I thought too! (Being tricky!) Looks like Red Hermetite or similar is the way forward.... :)

Chris
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Ian Linden » Mon Nov 11, 2013 15:34

SCORE Treasurer & Membership Secretary
User avatar
Ian Linden
Steering Group
Steering Group
 
Posts: 4165
Images: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 21:58
Location: St Lawrence, Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Tue Nov 12, 2013 06:10

Thnx for that! :)

But there's more. Read on for an update....

I enquired about the thermostat (#17670-73G01 in Fig 20 in the parts book) at my local Suzuki dealership and found that this [part] is for vehicles operating in cooler climates. For Oz they gave me another part number: 17600-85811. This one operates at 88 degrees while the one in the parts book is 78 degrees. This [new] part could be suitable for any hot climate, couldn't it?

And the thermostat comes packaged together with a gasket. (Now that's a surprise - no gasket was shown in the parts book...!) 8O

Cheers

Chris
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Ian Linden » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:41

It's good that they can provide an EA21R thermostat for Oz, even though the car was never sold there - maybe it's also used on other models.

I never thought the gasket would be with the part - maybe if we could read Japanese we would have seen that !
SCORE Treasurer & Membership Secretary
User avatar
Ian Linden
Steering Group
Steering Group
 
Posts: 4165
Images: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 21:58
Location: St Lawrence, Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Murray Betts » Tue Nov 12, 2013 13:47

88 deg C is a perfectly normal temp for a thermostat. I'd say you'll be fine. I worked for a couple of car manufacturers and we didn't fit different th'stats for different markets, and we sold worldwide (Canada at -35C and Dubai at +45C)

I'm not sure what the 78C one would be for to be honest, the point being that once it is fully open (usually no more than 5 deg C above the nominal value) it makes no difference, they will both be fully open by about 93 C, so even in a hot climate the low speed cooling or with the fan operating such as in traffic won't be any different. With a properly working rad cap at about 1 Bar positive pressure and with decent 50/50 glycol coolant the boiling point is around 125C. It generally isn't much problem to see 110C top hose temp stationary in traffic, it'll drop OK once you start moving. Main thing is to keep the rad fins clear of flies/dirt so airflow is OK.

Low temps aren't particularly good for anything, oil suffers contamination etc.

I remember getting cars back from testing in Australia and the dust is a most peculiar substance, very fine and it packs into every crevice and turns into into a solid lump. Quite a problem.
Murray Betts
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 20:20
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Tue Nov 12, 2013 14:04

Hi Murray

It appears from what you say that 88 deg C is the norm! Well, that's OK by me: I'm one for standardization! :)

But I'm also replacing the glycol with Evans Waterless Coolant before fitting the new thermostat. The old (= worn out) one must have been the original one so I guess it's time for a change anyway! When I took the car out on Sunday for a spirited jaunt through the country lanes, the engine temperature was abnormally high and only when I drove normally, did the temperature return to normal.

And keeping the original radiator instead of replacing it with a high-capacity unit may not be necessary after all.

Still, I will report back on this thread after a few weeks with my findings for all to read :) .

Cheers

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Tue Nov 12, 2013 14:13

Ian Linden wrote:It's good that they can provide an EA21R thermostat for Oz, even though the car was never sold there - maybe it's also used on other models.

I never thought the gasket would be with the part - maybe if we could read Japanese we would have seen that !


Hi Ian

You're probably right - perhaps it is also used in their other models! Re gasket, now we know! :D But it should have at least been included in the exploded view diagram...

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Murray Betts » Tue Nov 12, 2013 23:07

Thermostats usually fail open, they're designed that way. If you are seeing high temps when driven hard I'd be suspecting either blockages/restrictions somewhere, either water-side or air-side, or possibly even water pump vanes eroded away.

Is the radiator clean on the airside, and have you seen any signs of sludging in the coolant?

Do you have a specific reason for going away from ethylene glycol based coolant? I presume the waterless stuff you're referring to is propylene glycol, that's the usual base? I once did some testing at a car company with propylene glycol and while it will work fine, there are really no great benefits other than it is not toxic like ethylene glycol. All production engines as far as I'm aware are using ethylene glycol based coolants.
Murray Betts
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 20:20
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Ian Linden » Tue Nov 12, 2013 23:27

Murray Betts wrote:Thermostats usually fail open, they're designed that way.


I wonder if that is true of the thermostats used by Suzuki. I know of a number of Vitaras which have had overheating problems cured by fitting a new thermostat. The symptoms were that the temperature took longer than normal to reach expected levels, then it see-sawed around quite a lot, and would get close to the red if the engine was required to deliver high power levels. The consensus was that the thermostat had jammed at a partially opened position.

I'm not sure that Adrian's SAAB didn't do the same?
SCORE Treasurer & Membership Secretary
User avatar
Ian Linden
Steering Group
Steering Group
 
Posts: 4165
Images: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 21:58
Location: St Lawrence, Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Murray Betts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 00:37

You could well be right, Ian. If it fails to fail correctly (!) it could end up half open, which as you say would explain the behaviour. I've not come across that personally, but it could happen.
Murray Betts
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 20:20
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Wed Nov 13, 2013 00:59

Murray Betts wrote:Is the radiator clean on the airside, and have you seen any signs of sludging in the coolant?

Do you have a specific reason for going away from ethylene glycol based coolant? I presume the waterless stuff you're referring to is propylene glycol, that's the usual base?


Hi Murray

The radiator looks OK from the air side and the glycol appears clean without any trace of sludging. As for the move away from glycol, I have been doing some research into waterless coolants and was quite impressed with the facts from the various sources I've discovered thus far.

One thing does stand out for me is that the integrity of a waterless coolant will last (or outlast in some cases) the life of a car. The notion of a "fit-and-forget" system is also particularly practical whereas normal ethylene glycol will have to be changed every few years to preserve that integrity.

Hope that makes sense...

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Murray Betts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 01:27

The corrosion inhibitor package will be "used up" just the same as for conventional coolants, so I would hesitate to believe a "fit for life" claim. It's quite a complex chemical cocktail, and the big producers like BASF sort of know what they're doing.
Murray Betts
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 20:20
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Wed Nov 13, 2013 02:02

Hi Murray

I've noted your comments.

But in saying that, how about if you did your own research on Evans cooling products and posted your findings on this website? Your first-hand knowledge/critique [of the product] would be invaluable info for us. :)

What info I found was by merely trawling through the internet; and this is the first time I'm going to use this product based on the knowledge gleaned from there.

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Wed Nov 13, 2013 17:48

Murray Betts wrote:....blockages/restrictions somewhere, either water-side or air-side, or possibly even water pump vanes eroded away.


Hi Ian

Out of curiosity, if I required a new water pump (that is, if the vanes on the existing pump was eroded away) where in the parts book can I find the part number of the water pump? :confused: I looked through the exploded view diagrams and didn't see one. Presumably it would look pretty similar to the one for an EA11R...does it?

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Murray Betts » Wed Nov 13, 2013 18:31

Hi Chris
I wouldn't in any way try to say whether you should use it or not.

I've had a quick look at the Evans site, and from what I can see it's a propylene glycol based product.

There is a lot of data available on propylene glycol, for example at Dow chemicals here.The boiling point says it is the simple form of propylene glycol (1,2-propanediol) which has a nominal BP of 187C. I suspect the slightly lower value quoted is because it is hygroscopic, absorbs water from the air, so reduces the BP.

Some of the "issues" Evans discuss regarding "water-containing" coolant (ethylene glycol type) aren't really issues in my opinion. Engines are designed to use ethylene glycol/water coolants. Local boiling, either film or nucleate, is not an issue providing the local velocities are sufficient to scour the gases away, which is how the cooling passages are designed. While steam doesn't conduct heat away well, the process of boiling absorbs a lot of heat (latent heat of vapourisation) and as such can be a quite effective way of removing heat, the steam gets scoured away to a cooler area and condenses again back into the coolant. Note too that the specific heat capacity of propylene glycol is only around 0.7 of that of water, so in liquid form it won't absorb as much heat as water based coolant for a given temperature rise, suggesting it needs either a greater flow rate or a greater "delta-T". That may not be a great issue in practice, but it should be considered.

They are trying to make a case for why their coolant is better than conventional ethylene glycol mix, and fair enough that's business, but it's not always necessarily a balanced story.

I don't know a lot about the chemistry of propylene glycol coolant, but a quick look at Wiki here and at the Amsoil equivalent coolant here indicate the need for inhibitors with prop glycol, and how it can have it's own set of degradation issues when used hot and with any oxygen about and in the opresence of metals (i.e. a vehicle cooling system).

It is widely used as a coolant in food processing and domestic areas where it could be ingested, it is essentially harmless.

As I said, use it if you decide it is a good product, but bear in mind that sales blurb doesn't necessarily give the whole picture.
Murray Betts
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 20:20
Location: Warwickshire, UK

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Ian Linden » Wed Nov 13, 2013 20:26

Chris da Silva wrote:Out of curiosity, if I required a new water pump (that is, if the vanes on the existing pump was eroded away) where in the parts book can I find the part number of the water pump? :confused: I looked through the exploded view diagrams and didn't see one. Presumably it would look pretty similar to the one for an EA11R...does it?


It's at Figure 18.

Using the Index system on the left, open up the drop-down "Parts Listings" under "Engine", and there it is. If you can't see the Index system, try another browser.

It looks quite different. The 11R seems to be gear-driven, whereas the 21R is belt-driven.
SCORE Treasurer & Membership Secretary
User avatar
Ian Linden
Steering Group
Steering Group
 
Posts: 4165
Images: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 21:58
Location: St Lawrence, Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Thu Nov 14, 2013 04:11

Ian Linden wrote:It's at Figure 18.

Using the Index system on the left, open up the drop-down "Parts Listings" under "Engine", and there it is. If you can't see the Index system, try another browser.

It looks quite different. The 11R seems to be gear-driven, whereas the 21R is belt-driven.


Hi Ian

That threw me out completely!! 8O The part doesn't even look like a water pump in the conventional sense...in fact, more like a compressor of some sort!

I flicked though the parts book, thinking a water pump should look quite similar to the one fitted to the EA11R... so mystery solved!

Thnx for your info :D

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Parts - Assistance needed....

Postby Chris da Silva » Thu Nov 14, 2013 04:28

Hi Murray

Fair comments, my friend! And I can see where you're coming from with all this! :)

Yes, for years, motorists have been using the tried-and-tested ethylene glycol mix; but as this "new" waterless coolant alternative is now available, I've got to try it. On paper (and elsewhere) it appears to be the ideal coolant but the proof the pudding is always in the eating, as they say! :D

I also have a small collection of classic sports cars which I regularly take to Club meets and car rallies; and I'm thinking of changing their coolants over to this waterless product over time. The Cappo is the first one. Instead of using my everyday runabout (which incidentally only does stop/start city driving) as the test bed, I am using a car [which will be driven in a spirited way] for evaluation. :) Depending on the outcome of this evaluation, I will then decide whether or not to change the coolants of the other cars over to the waterless variety.

C
Chris da Silva
Message Board Guru
Message Board Guru
 
Posts: 240
Images: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 13:34
Location: Perth, Australia

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests