Overhaul/Rebuild advice

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

I will be doing my engine overhaul/rebuild soon.
What I want to ask everyone is what parts should I get for it.
Assuming my engine everything is ok with the engine accept for blown piston ring ?
What I think first is :

1. Gaskets (Do I have to get all of them ? Or just pick the necessary ones ?)Metal gasket anyone ?
2. Pistons, std size. Cylinder bore is normal. Or should I better get oversize ?
3. Ring set for pistons.
4. Piston pin and circlip (Are conrods necessary ? If they are ok ? )
5. All oil seals I can think of.
6. Bearings for connecting rod, crank shaft crank thrust ?
7. Is new water, oil and fuel pump necessary ?
8. Timing belt tensioner
9. I've heard that F6A exhaust valves are under heavy pressure and are easily damaged, so is it possible to replace exhaust ones and keeping the intake ones ?
10. Are these parts necessary to replace if they are in a good condition ?
    (Hydraulic valve lash, valve rocker arm, valve spring, valve retainer, cotter valve, valve steam seal is probably needs to be replaced, right ? valve spring seat ?)

Any help will be really appreciated.
And again, if any of you have any detailed photos of Cappo engine bay, interior, rear window area, stripping process maybe. They would really help.
Thanks !

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

21 views ? And not even a comment.


Would be great to get more feedback soon. It's a bit urgent.
Thanks for understanding, all!

[Dave Mochnik]

Andrew,

If you're doing a rebuild you've got to change all the oil seals and gaskets. Only get oversize pistons if you want as they're not really a necessity but you have to think ahead as to what you actually want out of the engine power wise.

You need numbers 1,3,5,6 on your list. Number 10 only if necessary but not number 7, 8 unless there is something wrong with the current stuff. Only change number 9 if they are damaged (I've put a Cap engine through a lot more stress than anyone that I know and I've never had problems with valves)

You can get a gasket kit from Dany at Cappuccinosport, but you need to buy all the oil seals and valve related stuff seperately: he also sells metal head gaskets (I wouldn't go for a 2mm head gasket though: 1mm or 1.4mm is enough)

[Ian Linden]

I agree with Dave, except I would say forget oversize pistons unless the bores are damaged and need reboring. The extra capacity you would get is too small to make the cost worthwhile as a performance mod.

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

So if the pistons are ok, ther is no need to change them. Hmm, one of them has more burnt carbon on then the others. I think thats ok.
Anyway, thanks for advice ! I will keep you updated.

[Dick Winchester]

How many Kms has this engine done?

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

I think about 80000 kms.
Will be waiting for your answer, Dick.

[Dick Winchester]

So about 50,000 miles in real money. Not a lot for an engine nowadays unless it's been abused...

First my engine rebuild experience extends to original minis and a twin cam Fiat engine (Alfa Romeo really) which had a new timing belt snap after 10,000 miles..... I was not amused.... bent valve stems, one piston with big hole in it and a sumpful of metal.. Took me 8 weeks to sort it. I've also worked on Subaru Boxer engines but under "strict supervision" from the owner.. More of a "hold that light still" role

So with that in mind here's my penny worth...

1. Gaskets.... I'd automatically replace all them. I agree with Dave on the head gasket.

2. If cylinder bore is normal and in good condition stick with standard pistons.

3. Personally - if I had the thing in bits I'd change all the rings. Good info in the manual on this.

4. No - I wouldn't bother to change conrods or pins or circlips unless they're obviously damaged.

5. Yes..... take the opportunity

6. Absolutely.. change all the bearings. Again there's good info in the manual.

7. Don't bother with the pumps but do change any seals/gaskets

8. Don't think I'd bother with this unless its causing problems.

9. 50,000 miles is a bit early for valve changing. Nothing wrong with a good cleanup though to get rid of any crud on the valve seats and the back of the valve head. Nothing abrasive though!

10. None of these are likely to be a problem at this mileage under normal wear/tear.

You haven't mentioned cams... I've not looked at a Cappo's cams yet so don't know if they wear well or not. Others might like to comment.

The other question I'd ask is why this ring went in the first place and as it went did it damage the bore? Your engine is quite youthful for this to happen.

Otherwise and without wishing to teach an old dog new tricks I'd flush the heck out of everything before putting it all back together because if your piston ring went there could be microscopic bits of metal skulling around just waiting to leap into a nice fresh bearing. Magnetic sump plugs were good for that. Wonder if you can get them for a Cappo?

BTW - is the burnt carbon on the piston with the duff ring?

[Murray Betts]

FWIW, my views -

as others say, if the bores are OK, just clean them, glaze-bust (along the lines of honing but just use a very coarse grit to cut some oil retention into the surfaces and give some abrasion to break in the new rings). Normal honing angle is around 30deg to the circumferential, for a rebuild it's not that critical. If you don't glaze-bust/hone the rings won't bed-in and blowby and oil consumption will be high, but don't overdo it.

I'm always very wary of re-boring shops, unless they are well known to be good. Many blocks with parent-metal bores (i.e no liners) are bored/honed with "honing plates" bolted on to simulate the cylinder head clamp loads, which recreates the distortions that occur when the head is tightened down. A lot of shops won't do this and you'll always get higher blowby/oil cons/emissions than for a factory build.
Main bearings should also be torqued for boring.

New pistons normally come complete with pin and circlips, and should have new rings fitted. You can usually fit new rings to old pistons with no real problems providing the grooves are in good condition with not too much side wear (sometimes referred to as "pounding out" once the side clearance gets excessive and the rings literally hammer the piston material). Ensure you clean the bottom of the grooves clear of carbon, and of course fit the rings the right way up (top is usually marked) and fit the pistons in the engine the right way round (pin is offset to thrust side).

I would personally renew exhaust valves, the cost isn't that great and it resets the "failure clock". Always use new cotters with new valves, old collars (top washers) are fine unless damaged. Renew stem seals. Lightly lap the valves in but don't polish the seats, a slightly coarse surface will conform in the first few minutes of running and provide a good seal.

Other valve gear should be fine unless damaged.

I prefer to use OE head gaskets whenever possible. A lot of design/development expertise goes into a head gasket, and a production item will stand up to a lot more than you can usually throw at it. Solid gaskets done as aftermarket are always "suck-it-and-see". Maybe they'll be fine, maybe not. Gasket compliance is carefully engineered to ensure even clamping loads and high enough pressure at the fire-ring to avoid combustion gas leakage. The core type, any pressed features, facings and any surface coatings are all engineered for specific reasons.

I don't think the compression ratio needs reducing unless you're going to try for ridiculous outputs. A modern boosted engine for 95RON fuel and producing around 18Bar BMEP would be at least 9.0:1 these days, the standard 8.3:1 is pretty conservative (being a 91RON spec engine), and gives plenty of scope for increased boost.

Reducing CR reduces efficiency and increases heat to coolant and exhaust temperatures, neither of which is desirable.

Many engine failures result from incorrect running/calibration or poor build/maintenance, not from fundamental design spec. I recall a number of failures Dave Benson had, which were really down to poor boring/piston fit rather than anything else.

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

Thanks for such informative replies.
I will prepare a list of parts and post it here, to check it with you.

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

I've found some old engine pics of mine. Please take a more mature look at it. Thanks!

Some engine pics

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

Here is an approximate list of parts.
Final decision on pistons will be probably made here.
Please check if I'm right on my choice and if forgot to put something.
Thanks!


714 11401-70866 SUZUKI F6A Engine Gasket Kit ] will choose one of
11401-70843 – GASKET SET, engine X1 ] them
09482-00386- Plug, Spark (NGK, DCP7EVX) X3
16510-82701 - FILTER, Oil X1
09280-16005 – O Ring
3 X 12140-50E50 SUZUKI F6A Piston Ring STD Size
3 x 12111-62D51-0B0 - Standard size pistons
3X 12151-54A50 PIN, piston
09381-18005 CIRCLIP X6
6 x 12181-54A50-0A0 - SUZUKI F6A Con. Rod Bearing T:1.5:
1X12300-61810-0A -Bearing Set, Crankshaft T:2.0 :
1 x 12300-82820 - Bearing Set, Crank thrust T:2.5 :
1 x 12300-82820-012 - Bearing Set, Crank thrust T:2.563 :
1 x 09283-32042 - Oil Seal (# ch. 09283-32038) :
1 x 09283-60005 - Oil Seal :
12623-70B00 – BEARING, input shaft
2 x 09283-32042 - Oil Seal (# ch. 09283-32038) :
6 X 12915-53A10 SUZUKI F6A Exhaust Valve :
12 X 09289-05012 Valve Stem Seals :
24X12932-24400 - Cotter, valve

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

Anyone ?

[Ian Linden]

I'd add a timing belt, and while you're about it, the alternator and aircon compressor belts.

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

Why alternator ? Have you seen the pics of cylinder head ?
What about pistons, new ? Can you look through the list and point out what is really a must buy for me.
THanks !

[Ian Linden]

Why alternator ?

I mean the alternator drive belt: Because it's cheap, and you may as well replace it rather than put the old one back

Have you seen the pics of cylinder head ?
What about pistons, new ? Can you look through the list and point out what is really a must buy for me.
THanks !

I can't see any reason from the pictures to change the pistons, if that's what you mean.

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

714 11401-70866 SUZUKI F6A Engine Gasket Kit ] will choose one of
11401-70843 – GASKET SET, engine X1 ] them
09482-00386- Plug, Spark (NGK, DCP7EVX) X3
16510-82701 - FILTER, Oil X1
09280-16005 – O Ring
3 X 12140-50E50 SUZUKI F6A Piston Ring STD Size
6 x 12181-54A50-0A0 - SUZUKI F6A Con. Rod Bearing T:1.5:
1X12300-61810-0A -Bearing Set, Crankshaft T:2.0 :
1 x 12300-82820 - Bearing Set, Crank thrust T:2.5 :
1 x 12300-82820-012 - Bearing Set, Crank thrust T:2.563 :
1 x 09283-32042 - Oil Seal (# ch. 09283-32038) :
1 x 09283-60005 - Oil Seal :
12623-70B00 – BEARING, input shaft
2 x 09283-32042 - Oil Seal (# ch. 09283-32038) :
6 X 12915-53A10 SUZUKI F6A Exhaust Valve :
12 X 09289-05012 Valve Stem Seals :
24X12932-24400 - Cotter, valve
+
Alternator
+
Timing belt
I've withdrawed the pistons, circlips, pins from the list.
So that will pretty much be it, right ?

[Ian Linden]

Andrew,

Not Alternator. My suggestion is:

Alternator Drive Belt

Aircon Compressor Drive Belt

[Andrew Platkovskiy]

Ok. Thanks Ian!
Much appreciated !
Andrew

[Dick Winchester]

My only comment would be that I'd hang fire on your order until you've got the piston with the duff ring out and u can have a good look at it.